The problem with the TikTok ban, according to Minnesota content creators

[MUSIC PLAYING] CATHY WURZER: The future of the popular app TikTok is in limbo. TikTok is owned by ByteDance, a Chinese company. Federal lawmakers and intelligence officials worry it could be used to spy on Americans or interfere with an election. The US House of Representatives passed legislation last week giving TikTok two choices-- find a buyer or face a nationwide ban.

The bill faces an uncertain future in the Senate, but President Biden indicates he would sign the law. So we wanted to talk to some local TikTok content creators about all this. Joining us right now are Dylan and Suzanne White. They are the husband and wife duo known as Dad Chats and Mom Chats, respectively. Together, they have two million followers who watch along as they talk mostly about life with four young kids. Here's a snippet.

SUZANNE WHITE: Why did I overhear Riley telling Mason that I was foaming at the mouth when I was having Bailey?

DYLAN WHITE: What?

SUZANNE WHITE: Riley, our six-year-old, was telling our four--

[LAUGHTER]

That moms foam at the mouth when having babies. And I need to understand why they think I was foaming at the mouth.

DYLAN WHITE: Rabies.

[LAUGHTER]

SUZANNE WHITE: You told them I had rabies?

DYLAN WHITE: She asked about rabies. She said does it hurt when you have rabies?

[LAUGHTER]

Did she say babies? I thought she asked about rabies.

[LAUGHTER]

CATHY WURZER: That video has more than 20 million views. Dylan and Suzanne join us right now. Hey, thanks for taking the time.

DYLAN WHITE: Yeah, thanks for having us. We appreciate it.

CATHY WURZER: Absolutely. Got to start by asking you, how did you get into creating TikToks, Dylan?

DYLAN WHITE: Yeah, so it actually started for me back in 2020. So at the time, Suzanne and I were coaching a high school speech and debate team, which is most of our background. It's how we met in college, and we had a couple of kids on the team at the time who were pretty popular on the app. And I remember we were at a tournament one day, and they were on their phones, and they were doing something.

And I was like, what are you guys doing? And one of them said it's TikTok. And I said, what's TikTok? And one of them looks at me and goes, you're too old for TikTok. And at that point, I was like, OK, I'll take that bet. And I said I bet you that in 30 days I'll be more popular than you.

And so after I accepted an illegal bet with a high schooler, on Day 29, I had a video that hit like 30 million, and then I took off in followers. And at that point, I kind of quit because I was like, well, I did that, I guess. And then once the pandemic hit, it just became something where it was like, that was really fun, and I need that creative outlet again. So I got back into it, and then Suzanne's path was kind of different.

CATHY WURZER: Suzanne?

SUZANNE WHITE: So I had no intentions of starting. I created an account mostly just to troll him. He didn't know that I had started it, but I thought it was funny to have an account that mimicked his that just kind of left random comments to make him feel a little uneasy.

DYLAN WHITE: Which it did.

CATHY WURZER: I'm wondering here, Dylan, why don't we talk about the ban. You posted this pretty vulnerable video about why the ban doesn't sit well with you. Can you talk a bit about that?

DYLAN WHITE: Yeah, for sure. So obviously, as an attorney, I have sort of my own opinions about the ban which we can get into, if you'd like. But for me, the biggest thing was I've always been able to use this platform and see this platform in a way that as a kid who was like bullied a lot when I was a child and didn't really have an outlet to sort of feel like my voice mattered, this app has always done that for me.

And it's always allowed me to be my like weird, strange self and feel like the things that I have to say matter for some people. And it's been kind of weird over the past year specifically where I will get messages from so many people weekly that are either like, hey. I'm in a really dark place, and your wife's video on this or you and your wife's content about this or your funny thing has really kind of helped me to not feel so alone. And it feels odd to make videos online and think that it's making a difference for someone's life out there.

But sort of all we can rely on for whether or not it's doing that is their actual testimonials about it happening. And so when we get those messages-- and I've even had a 18-year-old who sent me a message and was like I had thoughts of ending my life. And when I see your content about you and your kids-- we don't show kids-- but he said it reminded me that like there is a future in which I can rectify and fix the things that happened to me as a kid and raise potential kids in the future the way that I would have wanted to be treated. And that gave me enough hope. And so-- yeah.

CATHY WURZER: All that sounds really positive, but on the other side, and those who work in IT, app development, security say it's really-- TikTok does present a pretty big danger. Do you not buy into that?

DYLAN WHITE: I think that the best sort of stance and opinion that I've had on that is I'm completely open to learning more about that. I think the issue that a lot of us have seen is there hasn't been any public evidence of that possible information being leaked other than the fact that it could be. Even Senator-- or Representative Jeff Jackson the other day when he was talking about why he voted Yes on the bill even though he's a popular creator on the app, and he said I'm privy to information that the American public don't have.

And I think that one of the things that's sort of not sat well with so many of us in the app is that if there is a very real threat that is currently happening, just tell us. A lot of us are very educated, and a lot of us are very intelligent and very emotionally aware and can make decisions about our choices. But we need that information to do so. And if we're not being given that information but just sort of being told just trust us, historically, the government doesn't exactly have the best sort of reputational IQ when it comes to saying just trust us. I promise we're right.

CATHY WURZER: So kind of show me the evidence, right?

DYLAN WHITE: Right.

CATHY WURZER: Suzanne, if TikTok were banned, do you think you both would create content on other platforms?

SUZANNE WHITE: We've talked about it. We currently have other platforms that we use. I think that one thing we both really like about TikTok is how user friendly it is and how easy it is to make content. And so that's one of the poles that really keeps us tied to TikTok. It's given us a lot of opportunities.

So yes, I think that we enjoy the storytelling element the most and why we would probably continue finding other outlets. But it is weird to think like this huge community that we've enjoyed building together and that we enjoy interacting with could just like disappear.

CATHY WURZER: Again, going back to Dylan-- and you can chime in, too, Suzanne-- do you both see any free speech legal challenges to this? Dylan, I'll start with you.

DYLAN WHITE: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that the more common thing that's being discussed right now is, obviously, you know creators' ability to speak. But as someone who was primarily a first Amendment scholar in law school and after, I think probably actually the bigger issue is the long Supreme Court precedent of the First Amendment also including the access and the right to information regardless of where the source of that information is which is a long precedent and putting me on the spot. But I think it's Stanley v Georgia in terms of that ability to access that information.

So I think there's actually-- the ACLU will obviously make a much better argument than I will-- but there's sort of a duality going on in terms of it's not just a first Amendment question in terms of our ability as speakers to put information out there but also our ability as consumers to learn and digest that information. And that has a very long precedent, and I think, especially after this morning, with it seems like SCOTUS is going to say that it's OK for the government to sort of talk to social media companies about putting out information that's true and accurate when it comes to elections, for instance, I think that that's something that will absolutely play a role if this were to be passed by the Senate, too.

CATHY WURZER: Comment, Suzanne, on this?

SUZANNE WHITE: Well, I am not the legal scholar, so I talk to him mostly about that. And so I think everything that Dylan said is kind of where I align as well. I'm still learning a lot of this process and trying to understand how everything is intertwined and works. And so I go to him for those questions.

CATHY WURZER: I do have a question for you, and it's this. You probably both know there's this bill moving through the Minnesota legislature to give kids a cut in this new age of mommy bloggers. This bill would require parents who earn money from TikTok and Insta and YouTube to deposit 30% of the earnings into a trust account. Now, I know you don't have kids-- you don't show your kids. You're keeping them off the screen for a reason, Suzanne?

SUZANNE WHITE: Yeah, we've chose to just kind of preserve their privacy. And for safety reasons, we've just decided that it is best that we kind of keep them not in the limelight of it all. I mean, I think that there was a part when we were very small where we had maybe posted a couple small videos of them. But then as we started growing and we recognized like, oh, OK, when they get older, is this something that they're going to want to see of themselves?

And for us, that didn't seem right for us to make that decision for them. And so we made the choice to just keep them off of social media, mostly out of safety, but also to respect their privacy and the decisions that they want to make down the line.

CATHY WURZER: And, Dylan, do you think this is a good idea in terms of this potential law?

DYLAN WHITE: Yeah, I think it is. I think one of the things that sort of remains to be seen is the practicality of it. Just on sort of the most logical side, I would kind of hope that creators that are showing their kids are doing that anyway. But I think part of the bill is also it gives kids that are featured in content the ability to request that content to be deleted when they turn 18.

And I think that that is also a really cool idea, but the one thing that sort of presents an issue to me is how do you track that? And to me, the only way to track that is if you have these large social media companies knowing what a kid looks like at age six or whenever they're featured and what their name is and what their information-- probably their date of birth, et cetera-- so that later when they turn 18, they have that repository of information to track that.

And so I think that I would worry that it's a little bit of a hypocritical situation in terms of on the one hand, you're saying we don't want kids' privacy to be at risk, and we don't want their information out there. But on the other hand, the solution for that is to disseminate their privacy and their information more to the companies. And I don't know if necessarily that blends well together.

CATHY WURZER: Well, Suzanne and Dylan, really appreciate your time. Thank you so very much.

SUZANNE WHITE: Thank you.

DYLAN WHITE: Thanks for having us.

CATHY WURZER: We've been talking to Suzanne and Dylan White. They're the Minnesotans behind Mom and Dad Chats on TikTok.