The vice presidency went from an insignificant office to a game-changer on the campaign trail

CATHY WURZER: When a presidential candidate chooses a running mate, it can make or break their entire campaign. And unlike normal election cycles, Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris has had only two weeks to vet and choose a running mate. And, of course, as you know, today she announced she chose Governor Walz.

Joel Goldstein has dedicated much of his career to studying the role that US vice presidents have. He's a law professor at St. Louis University School of Law. Professor, good afternoon.

JOEL GOLDSTEIN: It's great to be with you.

CATHY WURZER: And I am pleased you have the time to join us. Thank you.

So if the Harris-Walz ticket wins in November, Minnesota will have three of the last six Democratic vice presidents. And I'm curious, with your research and your knowledge, what about this state makes, apparently, so many good vice presidential candidates?

JOEL GOLDSTEIN: Well, it's a wonderful question. I think it's the type of politics that are practiced in Minnesota, the fact that you have two parties, and the people have to work together. Although there has been a long-standing progressive Democratic Party, which Vice President Humphrey and Vice President Mondale were very much part of. And, of course, Vice President Mondale really transformed the office of the vice presidency into the modern office that it is today.

CATHY WURZER: Actually, let's drill into that, because there are some folks listening who might not understand that. How did then-Vice President Mondale change how that position is looked at?

JOEL GOLDSTEIN: Historically, the office had been the president of the Senate and successor up until the vice presidency of Alben Barkley, who was Harry Truman's vice president. For the next quarter century, including the vice presidency of Hubert Humphrey, the vice president moved into the executive branch, started taking on some assignments from presidents, but really was at the periphery of the presidency.

And Vice President Humphrey really had a frustrating time as vice president, largely due to some of the personality quirks of President Johnson. What Vice President Mondale realized was that the way of transforming the office was to change it from focusing primarily on presidential succession to trying to make the presidency succeed on an ongoing basis. And he came up with this vision of the vice president as an across-the-board advisor who would be willing to go into the Oval Office and tell the president when he or she was wrong and somebody who would take on high-level assignments. President Carter agreed to everything that Vice President Mondale suggested in that respect, gave him the resources that he needed. And Vice President Mondale really modeled it for four years so that even though they were defeated in 1980, the Mondale model continued as the model for most administrations of both parties going forward.

CATHY WURZER: I might have misspoke when I said that selecting a running mate can make or break the entire campaign. That might be a little bit too much there. What do you think about that? Because historically, how much impact does a vice presidential pick have on the outcome of an election?

JOEL GOLDSTEIN: Well, no, I think you spoke accurately. Most people are going to vote based upon their perception of the competing presidential candidates, but the vice presidential selection helps shape the image of the presidential candidate who chose them. After all, in Vice President Harris's case, it's the first presidential decision that she's made. And so in choosing Governor Waltz as her running mate, she sends messages both in terms of how she makes decisions, how good a decision maker she is, but also, what she values, what's important to her, what she's looking for.

The vice presidential candidate can also make a difference in terms of his or her ability as a communicator, their ability to talk to-- to reach voters who might not otherwise be impressed with the presidential candidate. And then I think they can make a difference in terms of their perceptions of the vice presidential candidates, the competing candidates as possible presidential successors, even if the effect is only at the margins. Many of our elections are decided at the margins. And, of course, it's the margin in each competitive state, not the popular vote. So if a vice presidential candidate affects votes in one or more of the competitive states, it can make a difference in the outcome of the election.

CATHY WURZER: So thank you for bringing up the role of campaign communicator, that a vice president can serve in that role. I see that Trump vice presidential candidate JD Vance just reacted to Kamala Harris picking Tim Walz as a running mate. And this is a quote now. "They make an interesting tag team because Tim Walz allowed rioters to burn down Minneapolis in the summer of 2020, and the few that got caught, Kamala Harris, helped them get bailed out of jail."

When did the role of vice president, the nominee on the campaign trail, turn into a bit of an attack-dog role? Who began that sort of thing?

JOEL GOLDSTEIN: Well, I think Richard Nixon in 1952 very much played that role in the 1952 campaign. It's a metaphor that's often used. It doesn't always fit. It really is a question of whether you-- I mean, criticizing the other side is perfectly appropriate. The question is, do you do it accurately and truthfully and in a temperate manner, or do you do it with vitriol and exaggeration and so forth?

And so every time you criticize, it's not an attack dog. It strikes me that the quote that you just relayed would be consistent with the attack-dog characterization. And, of course, one of the dangers in being attack dog is it reflects poorly on the vice presidential candidate. To the extent that people are viewed as attack dogs, it makes them appear less presidential. And I think that's reflective of some of the problems that Senator Vance has had in the first few weeks of his campaign.

CATHY WURZER: As we were, of course, on Walz watch here in the state of Minnesota, there was, of course, a lot of talk about who Ms. Harris might choose. And it was said that she was looking for somebody that she would be comfortable with. You just mentioned a few minutes ago that former Senator Hubert Humphrey, when he was vice president, Lyndon Johnson's vice president, they had a relationship that was fraught. It was difficult for Humphrey. And I'm wondering, how important is the relationship between president and vice president?

JOEL GOLDSTEIN: It's terribly important. The vice president's influence is largely derivative, and it depends upon the president showing that he or she has confidence and faith in the vice president in terms of the assignments that the president gives the vice president. President Carter demonstrated his confidence in Vice President Mondale in so many different ways, and on a continuous way. And what that did is it meant that Vice President Mondale was important to other people.

You knew that even if you couldn't get in to talk to President Carter, that talking to Vice President Mondale was important because he could persuade President Carter. So the relationship between the two is terribly important. And some of the reporting indicates that one of the factors that led Vice President Harris to choose Governor Waltz was the way in which their meeting went in the sense that she felt very comfortable and compatible with him.

And, of course, the other factor that becomes important is how well the vice president does his or her job. In every type of work, if you do your work well, you tend to get more assignments. Vice presidents who do their work well tend to have their number called more often. That was certainly Vice President Mondale's experience. And I think that was true of Vice President Harris's experience as well.

CATHY WURZER: A final quick question. How important is it for the president and vice president to be aligned on all issues?

JOEL GOLDSTEIN: Presidents and vice presidents have to be compatible in the sense that there are not tremendous differences between them, but some degree of difference is actually a good thing. One of Vice President Mondale's ideas was-- he said to President Carter that it was important for presidents to hear information that they didn't want to hear, to have somebody who would tell them the bad news, who would tell them that they were wrong. Mondale always did it privately with President Carter, but he wasn't shy about telling President Carter when he disagreed. And so having some difference between the president and the vice president is actually a good thing because it promotes discussion in full consideration of issues, which is really part of democratic governance.

CATHY WURZER: Professor, it's truly been a pleasure having you here with us. Thank you so very much for taking the time.

JOEL GOLDSTEIN: It's a treat to be with you. Thank you.

CATHY WURZER: That was vice presidential expert and law professor Joel Goldstein from St. Louis University.