As Trump and Harris prepare to square off Tuesday evening, UMN debate coach predicts tactics

CATHY WURZEL: Our top story is tonight's first and only scheduled presidential debate between Vice President Kamala Harris and former president Donald Trump. According to a new poll released today, about 70% of Americans are planning to tune in and 30% of registered voters are planning to use what happens tonight to decide how they're going to vote.

Joining us to talk about how tonight's debate could influence a tight race is University of Minnesota's Director of Forensics, another word for debate, of course, David Cram Helwich. Welcome back to the program. Good to hear your voice.

DAVID CRAM HELWICH: Hi, Cathy. Happy to be here.

CATHY WURZEL: So we talked, just before the last presidential debate between Trump and President Joe Biden, obviously, that ended up being quite consequential, more so than you and I probably had imagined at the time. And I recall you were teaching debate camp at the time. And I'm curious, because I haven't had a chance to talk to you since. what were you and your students thinking about that day?

DAVID CRAM HELWICH: So the next day, when we talked to the students, and you have to remember, we're talking about middle school and high school students. For most of them, this was the first presidential debate they'd seen. They shared most people's reaction to President Biden's performance. And there was a lot of speculation about whether or not he would be able to stay in the race.

But the strongest takeaway from the students is they saw the debate as having a lack of depth and detail in the candidates' arguments, and they contrasted that with the types of academic debates that we were working on with them. They viewed that as far different. And they were also, I think, a bit taken aback by the number of personal attacks that were evident in the debate.

CATHY WURZEL: Again, as you say, this is the first time they've seen something like that. Well, with now this time right around the corner, with election day is getting closer and closer, the race has a new democratic ticket. This one's, this race is incredibly close, as you know.

I'm curious, as a person who schools debators, what do you think each candidate should be working on really hard, at this point, to reach with their statements tonight? What must they be planning to do tonight?

DAVID CRAM HELWICH: Harris is in a position where she wants to be able to claim credit for actions by the Biden administration that are popular. So, for example, the strong labor market, the infrastructure bill that was passed, et cetera. But she's also trying to position herself as a change candidate because she doesn't want to be the focus of people's angst about inflation and other problems that the country faces. And given that she's only been in the race for less than a couple of months, and for a lot of voters, this is really the time of year where people start to pay attention to the general election, she has an opportunity to define herself, her leadership qualities, her values, and then tell the country what it is that she plans on focusing on, if she is able to win.

Trump's challenge is a bit different. He's a defined character. He's been either running for president or serving as president for over nine years now. And his challenge is to hit upon and then execute on a strategy that effectively characterizes and attacks aspects of Harris's policy platform or Harris's personal characteristics that he thinks will both resonate with relatively slim, small number of people in the electorate who have yet to decide who they're going to vote for in November, or mobilize people who agree with him, his base, as people describe it, to turn out for him in November.

CATHY WURZEL: Of course, Kamala Harris, no stranger to debate, a former prosecutor. But, really, she hasn't had an opportunity at this point to go off script much this campaign, this campaign season. She's been pretty controlled.

DAVID CRAM HELWICH: Yes.

CATHY WURZEL: What do you want to see from her when it comes to her performance?

DAVID CRAM HELWICH: Yeah, so I actually went back and watched her performances in 2019, from the Democratic primaries. And I think in most of her debates, she had a really strong performance. This is an opportunity for her to introduce herself to a good sized number of voters who do not yet have gelled opinions about her. And it's an opportunity for her to demonstrate or explain to people how she approaches problems and explain how she would function as a leader, as the head of state.

And then also speak to the kind of discomforts or problems that she thinks that the electorate faces, things like unease about the inflation crisis, problems around an immigration system, that I think most observers and even politicians themselves would agree really doesn't produce the outcomes that the country wants. And so what she needs to do, she needs to define herself around her leadership qualities, her values, and her policy priorities in a way that insulates itself from the inevitable attacks that she's going to face from Trump and his campaign.

CATHY WURZEL: So the one thing that popped up for many of us watching that last debate between Trump and Biden was the importance of not just what the candidates said, but how they said it, and how they look. So let's talk about optics. I'm going to think it's going to play a significant role tonight, perhaps.

DAVID CRAM HELWICH: It is. And I think people are even going to be paying attention to things like whether or not they shake hands when they come out, whether or not they shake hands at the end of the debate. I'm sure that both candidates have received a lot of advice and engaged in practice, in terms of media training, with doing things like maintaining eye contact with the camera, controlling their reactions while their opponent is speaking. Because my assumption is it's going to be a split screen, where you can see both the candidate who's speaking and the candidate who's responding.

And so even controlling things like whether or not they take a look at their watch, which is something that George H.W. bush was criticized for, rolling their eyes, looking exasperated, et cetera, are things that I think the candidates are going to pay attention to.

CATHY WURZEL: So I'm wondering, the rules are the same this time around too, microphones are going to be turned off to prevent interruptions. So I wonder how that changes how Trump and Harris react. They won't be able to interject on each other or interrupt each other.

DAVID CRAM HELWICH: That's part of a broader framework that we've seen in American debates, going back to the first televised one with Nixon and Kennedy, where they had very limited opportunities for the candidates to interact with each other. And another rule of the contest is they're not allowed to ask questions of one another. And kind of given the downsides of kind of having rules that allow for a free for all between the candidates, which is something that we saw in the first Biden-Trump debate, it makes a lot of sense to have the microphones muted.

But what it does is it means that it creates even, even more barriers to the candidates engaging in a direct exchange with one another, which I think makes it much more difficult for both candidates. And also increases the premium on their ability to define themselves and their positions relative to one another. Because I think what a lot of people are really looking for are contrasts between the leadership styles and the policy priorities of the candidates.

CATHY WURZEL: As a longtime debate moderator, I actually appreciate when candidates interact with one another. You can learn a lot about the individuals that way. And I'm wondering, just about the moderators, what will you be looking for?

DAVID CRAM HELWICH: I'm curious. So I'm curious about what issues they're going to select. And given that this is the only presidential debate on the calendar, I think there's pressure. They probably feel pressure to touch upon the seven or eight major issues that the campaigns have focused on during the contest, such as the economy, reproductive rights, commitment to the rule of law, and similar issues. So kind of the scope of issues.

I'm also going to be looking for how many opportunities they afford them to give the one minute rebuttals that the rules allow for, at the moderator's discretion. And I'm also curious about how much the tenor and content of the questions are going to be focused around either perceived strengths or vulnerabilities, either in terms of performance or on the campaign up to this point, or issues for both of the candidates.

CATHY WURZEL: Do you also like your moderators to do follow up questions and fact-checking?

DAVID CRAM HELWICH: It's extraordinarily difficult to do.

CATHY WURZEL: True.

DAVID CRAM HELWICH: But I think it's really important because without that, it really lowers or, rather, it creates an incentive for the candidates to engage in just making assertions without evidence. And without the moderators serving some sort of fact-checking function, we rely upon an audience to do so. And given the scope and length of these debates and the fact that a lot of people are just tuning into the race for the first time, is very difficult for people to do.

CATHY WURZEL: It should be interesting tonight. Professor, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

2 you. A pleasure to be here.

CATHY WURZEL: David Cram Helwich is Director of Forensics at the University of Minnesota. Now, a reminder, beginning tonight at 8:00 Central Time, we'll have a live broadcast of that presidential debate. You can listen on the radio or you can stream it at nprmusic.org.