Minneapolis shooting suspect's mental health history raises gun ownership questions

[MUSIC PLAYING] CATHY WURZER: We're going to talk more about this case right now. Since January, Minnesota has allowed family members, county attorneys, or chief law enforcement officers to request what's called an extreme risk protection order, also known as a red flag law. Joining us to talk more about this is DFL State Senator Ron Latz, who authored the red flag law. Thanks for joining us.

RON LATZ: Good afternoon.

CATHY WURZER: Everyone's talking about this case, senator. Do you think in this particular case, police should have filed an extreme risk protection order against Mr. Sawchak? What do you think?

RON LATZ: Well, I don't know all the information that they had ahead of time. I learn what I see in the news like most people. So that's a judgment call. They would have had to make. My understanding is that they already had probable cause that a crime had occurred, and that's why they were staking out the house several days over the course of time before the shooting occurred.

So they might already have had a court order in the form of a warrant to enable them, in their best judgment, to obtain custody of the individual. Whether and how they do that that's up to the law enforcement agency, I guess. And we're able to look back and say, maybe it should have been done differently.

But the red flag order is really, in particular, focused on those situations where there hasn't yet been any criminal conduct. But there is an individual that law enforcement or family or the county attorneys fear or believe, based on the evidence that they have, is a risk to him or herself or to others in their vicinity because they're having a mental health crisis or they're having an emotional crisis, and they have ready access to firearms. That's really the focus of the red flag bill.

CATHY WURZER: It sounds as though-- so it didn't sound like anyone was asking for a red flag-- for a petition in this particular case. It was definitely filed after the shooting, which was obviously too late in your opinion?

RON LATZ: Well, if there had been ample information, assuming that if there wasn't already a warrant, which is a court order for apprehension, if there wasn't one, yes, the law enforcement could have applied for a red flag order from a judge.

They would have had to file a petition with an affidavit outlining the facts that they believe creates the imminent threat of harm or the emergency ex-parte petition for an order. And then a judge would review that and would have the option of issuing an order, which would authorize actually direct law enforcement to go in and separate the person from their firearms.

CATHY WURZER: I'm curious, since the red flag law was enacted this year, as a matter of fact, 102 petitions have been filed and evidently 91 have been granted access granted across the state of Minnesota. And I'm wondering, does that sound like a low number to you or a high number to you? 91 petitions have been granted.

RON LATZ: Well, I don't know if it's low or high. Part of the workup for a new law is for people to become educated about its availability, knowing that they can use it. That includes law enforcement and the county attorneys get some experience in using it. And family members knowing that they can also file a petition independent of law enforcement or the county attorney's office.

So the fact that there have been 102, actually, what that tells me is that its use is probably increasing because midsummer, my recollection is the number was closer to 66 or so. So what that tells me is maybe more people are aware that it can be used, becoming more familiar with it, and utilizing that as a mechanism for protecting someone's life.

The largest source of firearm death in Minnesota is by suicide. And so quite often it's family members saying we got a family member, a son or brother or daughter, who's in a bad spot, is acting erratically and dangerously. And they've got firearms in their house and we don't want them to kill themselves or kill a partner. And then they will contact law enforcement and say we need to get something done.

It used to be that the cops would turn around and say, we don't have legal authority to do anything because they haven't done anything yet that is criminal in conduct. What we have now is a new tool. This extreme risk protection order is a new tool that judges can issue that order, and law enforcement can go in then and save lives.

CATHY WURZER: Do you think that the law at this point needs any tweaks next session? Are you pretty confident in the way it's working at this point? What are you hearing?

RON LATZ: We worked for years to put the statute together, but we always learn from experience. I don't think we have enough detail yet to know whether any tweaks will be necessary. I expect that we will get some input from the practitioners who are using it, either from the courts directly or from county attorneys are often involved in these cases. It's required that they be notified when a petition is filed, even if a petition is filed by law enforcement.

So they're pretty good. The organizations representing these folks are pretty good about coming to the legislature and saying, we've had this experience. We need to make a change here or a change there. So that wouldn't surprise me.

But what those numbers also tell me is that the judges are looking very carefully at the petitions and the affidavits. They're not just rubber stamping them, as some people feared would happen. If you've got 10% of the petitions are not being granted, that means there's a lot of thought as we would have expected, going into making a decision whether or not to intervene in this way.

CATHY WURZER: So getting back to the situation with Mr. Sawchak. I'm wondering, you're a lawmaker, you've got a legal background since we know a petition was filed for him after the shooting. What do you want to going forward in this case?

RON LATZ: Well, for our own experience, I'd like to know exactly what information was available to the extent that it can be shared publicly for us to evaluate this, as well as other cases in which the orders were filed and granted or not granted so that we have the ability to go back and maybe tweak the law a little bit.

It's also an opportunity to educate law enforcement agencies around the state that when these calls come in and if you're uncertain how to proceed, this is one path to get it in front of a judge promptly. And there are two routes to it. One is an ex-parte emergency order in which the judge can issue the order without having a full-blown hearing first. And then the subject of the order has a right within two weeks to get into court and have that full-blown hearing.

All I can say it's not quite as urgent as it needs to be right now. But we're going to have a hearing and we're going to do it within two weeks. And then we can make a decision about that. So there's a lot of process involved here, a lot of due process involved here. The ultimate goal, of course, is to prevent these kinds of things from happening. Whether in any particular case, it was ready to happen before the shooting occurred and what impact it will have afterward it's hard to say no.

CATHY WURZER: Final question for you in terms of educating law enforcement and the general public. Is that a role of lawmakers or law enforcement having trainings among themselves and educating the public? Whose role is it to try to get the word out on this? Any idea?

RON LATZ: Well, part of it is the media. I mean, what you're doing right now is helping people to understand that this is a tool that's available. I mean, I would always say if someone feels threatened or feels that their family member or someone they know is threatened, they should call the police. And the police are receiving training on this.

The county attorney's office or association, I believe, has done some statewide training for their folks to know how to use this and to make sure they understand this as a tool that's available. And the legislature, we pass the laws. We tend not to go out there and market them. So it's the other stakeholders that are involved in these situations that really get out and let people know.

And I think things not only terrible incidents like this, but the media that surrounds it will help family members know that they've got a tool here now and they should call their police department. If the police department doesn't seem to understand it's an option, the family member can say, hey, look, we know that this is a tool. Will this apply here? Can this help us here today? Got the police department, Sheriff's offices all around the state.

CATHY WURZER: All right. Senator, thanks for the time today. We appreciate it.

RON LATZ: My pleasure, Cathy. Thank you.

CATHY WURZER: We've been talking to DFL State Senator Ron Latz.