Floyd killing: Ex-cop Kueng says he trusted Chauvin as senior officer on scene
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Takeaways from Wednesday’s testimony
Ex-cop Tou Thao said he was aware Floyd appeared unconscious under Derek Chauvin’s knee, but expected his colleagues to aid Floyd while he ran crowd control;
Thao said he routinely used his knees to restrain people during his MPD trainings and had never been corrected by a training officer;
Ex-cop J. Alexander Kueng said he felt Floyd could just “shake him off” as he struggled to arrest him;
Chauvin “was my senior officer and I trusted his advice,” Kueng said.
Updated 6:37 p.m.
Former Minneapolis officer J. Alexander Kueng took the stand in his own defense Wednesday, responding publicly for the first time about his actions at the scene of George Floyd’s killing in police custody.
Kueng, one of the officers trying to arrest Floyd outside a south Minneapolis store on May 25, 2020, said the initial call that brought them to Cup Foods — a complaint alleging someone had used a counterfeit $20 bill — didn’t seem that serious.
But as Floyd resisted getting into the back of the squad car, telling officers he was claustrophobic, Kueng said he had "never been involved in a struggle like with Floyd" and felt like at any time Floyd could just "shake him off."
Floyd's size influenced why officers decided to put him in squad, he noted.
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“An individual that is that physically imposing, it can be beneficial to just put them in the squad, so the threat is as neutralized as it could be,” he said.
Derek Chauvin was one of Kueng's field training officers. Kueng told his defense attorney that according to his experience, senior officers were always in charge of the scene and that he wasn’t initially aware of Chauvin’s knee on Floyd’s neck or back.
"He was my senior officer and I trusted his advice." Kueng said.
He also spoke about how bad police-community interactions he observed while growing up in north Minneapolis convinced him that he could help improve the situation as a police officer.
He and ex-officers Tou Thao and Thomas Lane are charged with failing to provide Floyd medical aid. Thao and Kueng are also charged with failing to intervene with their colleague Chauvin’s use of force on Floyd.
Chauvin was found guilty in April on state charges of murder and manslaughter in Floyd’s killing. Bystander video showed Chauvin keeping his knee pressed against Floyd’s neck for more than nine minutes as the man lay handcuffed and face down on the pavement, pleading that he couldn’t breathe.
‘Oh no’
Thao’s testimony Tuesday and Wednesday was the first time the public had heard from any of the three other officers on the scene that day outside Cup Foods. Thao insisted he was focused on crowd control and wasn’t aware of force being used on Floyd.
He admitted knowing that Floyd had stopped speaking minutes after Chauvin began using his knee to restrain Floyd. Thao, who had been with Minneapolis police for eight years at the time, also said he saw Floyd stop moving and that he appeared unconscious.
Under questioning by prosecutor LeeAnn Bell, Thao admitted that he knew about the dangers of positional asphyxia for people kept handcuffed in the prone position. Thao testified that he assumed Chauvin’s knee wasn’t interfering with Floyd’s ability to breathe.
“[Floyd’s] trachea was being protected by the ground, so logically to me, it wouldn’t be possible for his knee to be pressing down on his trachea,” Thao said. “Common sense.”
When pressed by the prosecution on the responsibility of officers to assess Floyd medically, Thao said “there were three officers who could check him. I was doing crowd control.” But he admitted that he didn’t communicate bystander concerns about Floyd’s medical condition to the other three officers.
Thao testified that he couldn’t observe "force" being used on Floyd. He said Chauvin could have been “hovering” over Floyd, but he wasn’t always watching.
Bell asked whether Thao stopped bystanders from stepping in to help Floyd, but the judge sustained an objection that the question was speculative and prejudicial. Thao acknowledged bystanders were asking him to help Floyd
Asked by defense attorney Robert Paule why the officers needed to restrain Floyd, Thao cited the controversial syndrome “excited delirium.”
"To get him medical attention to save his life, we needed EMS there to get that medical care that we weren't capable of doing." Asked whether he intended Floyd harm to Floyd, Thao said, "Oh no."
Bell pressed Thao Tuesday on his responsibilities as a law enforcement officer. He admitted that his job was to stop crime if he saw it happening. Bell then asked if that also applied to police officers who were breaking the law. Thao agreed that it did.
Under examination by his attorney Robert Paule, Thao told jurors about his upbringing in north Minneapolis and Fridley, Minn. He talked about watching police officers arrest his abusive father, and how that spurred his interest in policing.
Thao said he believed that Floyd was “on drugs” or suffering from “excited delirium,” a controversial syndrome rejected by major medical associations. Thao said it appeared that Floyd had “superhuman” strength as three officers struggled to force him into the back of a squad vehicle.
Thao also testified that he routinely used his knees to restrain people during his MPD trainings and had never been corrected by a training officer.
Parts of Thao’s testimony may have implications for his co-defendants.
The judge has said he can be questioned about what Keung and Lane did, but not about whether what they did was right.
Thao testified that he didn’t touch Floyd, but that if he had been restraining Floyd, he would have checked on his health and given him medical aid if necessary. He also said that the officers who initiated the arrest were in charge of the scene.
Both those statements contradict likely arguments from Lane’s and Kueng’s attorneys, who have been arguing that Minneapolis police training was inconsistent and inadequate. Former police officer Caree Harper, now a civil rights attorney in southern California who is not involved in this case, said she’s skeptical that the defense’s focus on training might be convincing to jurors.
“There is no amount of training that is going to teach a person to be a human being. If you don’t recognize you’re killing someone and they’re foaming at the mouth and they’re dying in front of you, you should not be in the uniform,” Harper said.
Keung and Lane’s attorneys are also arguing that their clients were rookies in their first week on the job and had to defer to Chauvin, who was their training officer. Lane can be heard on body camera video twice asking Chauvin if they should reposition Floyd on his side, but the senior officer rebuffs him.
Kenyen Brown, a former U.S. Attorney for the southern district of Alabama, said this just-following-orders argument could also be a tough sell.
“I don’t think it’s reasonable for an officer that observes another officer engaging in unconstitutional acts to say ‘Hey, I’m a rookie,’” Brown said. “He’s got the training. He has an independent obligation to act, to intervene, to render medical aid.”
Witness lists in this case are not public; Lane told the judge that he also plans to testify.
The judge initially told jurors the trial, which started with jury selection on Jan. 20, would last about a month. The defense cases will be followed by closing arguments for each side. Jurors will then deliberate over the charges.
