Is this the year for a ‘red flag’ gun law in Minnesota?

CATHY WURZER: And one of our top stories, there'll be a rally today at the State Capitol of people who want to see several gun control bills passed this session. We'll talk to one of the bill's sponsors coming up here in a few minutes. Right now, there are others who are concerned about the scale and scope of those bills, including gun rights advocates. Rob Doar, Senior Vice President of Government Affairs at the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus-- he's on the line live from the Capitol. Hey, Rob. Thanks for joining us.

ROB DOAR: Yeah, my pleasure.

CATHY WURZER: I'm going to talk to-- with any luck here-- State Representative Cedrick Frazier, the chief author of the red flag bill in the House here in a couple of minutes after you and I talk. Let's talk about that red flag bill that's up before the legislature. What's your concerns about a red flag law?

ROB DOAR: Well, the red flag law-- the biggest issue with it is it's got this provision in it which is an ex parte process where just based on an accusation from a fairly wide array of people, including former spouses, roommates, or a mental health professional-- can get a secret court order to go and have somebody's firearm seized.

And they don't actually do anything about the purported person in crisis. They just operate under the assumption that once the firearms are gone, everything's OK. And we just think that's a flawed premise.

CATHY WURZER: There are 19 states who have such red flag laws, and research shows those laws work to protect those who want to harm themselves. What of that?

ROB DOAR: They're actually-- if you look at the state, there's not a single state that has passed red flag laws that have seen a reduction in suicide rates. Every single one of them, suicide rates have continued to rise. Some of the states saw a brief interruption in firearm suicide rates, but the rates over time have climbed to prior their red flag law levels.

CATHY WURZER: Let's talk a little bit more about some of the other bills that are up before the legislature. There's a raft of them, and I'm wondering. Is some of your concern that any gun control bill begins kind of a slippery slope to more control?

ROB DOAR: We don't really engage in the slippery slope argument. We just address the bills that are in front of us, and the main issue is that bills that are in front of us-- they don't do anything to address the issues that people are actually concerned about. They only add hurdles to law-abiding citizens. We're here. We work all the time on firearm safety legislation, suicide reduction efforts.

We've worked with people on both sides of the aisle actually addressing individuals in crisis and addressing criminal use of firearms. But these bills only focus on adding additional hurdles for law-abiding citizens to go through.

CATHY WURZER: Instead of implementing new laws, I wonder what you think of this. Should pressure be placed on judges and prosecutors to charge gun crimes instead of swallowing the gun charge as part of a plea bargain?

ROB DOAR: Yeah, I think that is a big problem we see repeatedly, that these individuals responsible for the majority of firearm violence are already prohibited persons and in many instances have had their convictions stayed. We already have mandatory minimums for felon and possession of a firearm or those who use firearms in crimes.

But those are routinely pled away or the sentences are stayed. And we certainly advocate for-- we're happy to help address how we can hold the people who we are all worried about accountable for their actions and ensuring that they are not able to get control of firearms.

CATHY WURZER: As you see, the bills move through the legislature here. What would your caucus be willing to support? Is there any middle ground here on any of these bills?

ROB DOAR: Well, one thing that we've been firm advocates for that we're still working on is having stronger prosecutions of straw purchasers. That is the number one way that criminals acquire their firearms is through black market transactions and getting people who they know will pass a background check to go and buy one for them.

A couple of years ago, the last time these bills were up at the legislature, then Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman said that the reason they don't prosecute those is because the penalty is too low, so that seems like a really simple thing that we can all agree on. We also have worked with mental health professionals on mechanisms to allow individuals who are going through a mental crisis to voluntarily surrender their firearms while they're seeking help in a safe way.

The ways that are going about through these bills are actually much more likely to chill somebody-- a gun owner's willingness to seek mental health treatment for fear that their seeking of treatment is going to be used as a mechanism to deprive them of their Second Amendment rights.

CATHY WURZER: Likely it's possible that gun control bills will pass the House given the margins of DFL control in the House, but the Senate margin-- of course, as you know-- is razor thin. What do you think are the chances of some of these bills in the Senate?

ROB DOAR: Yeah. We do know there's going to be bipartisan opposition to these bills in the House, but they still will probably pass. The Senate, those thin margins-- I think it's all going to come down to a couple of greater Minnesota legislators, most likely Senator Rob Kupec from the Moorhead area and Senator Tom-- I'm sorry. Grant Hauschild from the Arrowhead region.

Both those areas are very, very strongly pro-gun, and even Tom Bach, the former representative of the Arrowhead, advised that Senator Hauschild would be well-served to vote against these bills just with how pro-gun that district is.

CATHY WURZER: All right, Rob Doar. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

ROB DOAR: My pleasure.

CATHY WURZER: Rob Doar is the Senior Vice President of Government Affairs at the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus. He's at the Capitol right now. And I mentioned DFL State Representative Cedric Frazier is the chief author of one of the gun control bills moving through the legislature-- specifically, that red flag bill in the House. Frazier represents the New Hope and Crystal areas. He's also the Vice Chair of the House Public Safety Committee. He's on the line. Representative, welcome.

CEDRICK FRAZIER: Hey, Cathy. How are you doing?

CATHY WURZER: Glad you're here. Thank you so much. I'm doing fine, thank you. So I was talking to Rob Doar there about the red flag law, and I said that 19 states have such laws. Research shows those laws work to protect those who want to harm themselves, but the numbers aren't so clear when it comes to preventing mass shootings. What are you hoping the legislation does?

CEDRICK FRAZIER: Well, I'm hoping that we here can bring the numbers down significantly in terms of the firearm-related suicides that we have. And what I will say-- I heard Mr. Doar speak to the fact that a couple of our senators that represents parts of greater Minnesota would be well-served to vote against these bills because it's so pro-gun.

But I don't think people in those areas are pro-suicide or pro losing their loved ones due to the fact that they're harming themselves-- and lethal harm, based on using a firearm. So I think that will be taken into consideration. We know that in the 19 states that have these red flag laws in place that it absolutely has a positive impact in terms of bringing down the numbers of folks that are committing suicides with firearms.

CATHY WURZER: I was talking to him about the determination of who would be considered a danger or a threat. That seems pretty subjective. What are the guidelines in the proposed bill?

CEDRICK FRAZIER: Well, it does have-- so what I will say is that the process is pretty clear. I mean, it provides due process. I know a lot of the narrative and our argument has been that folks are just going to come and seize weapons. That's not how this works.

CATHY WURZER: And he says it's based on an accusation, which is kind of tough.

CEDRICK FRAZIER: Well, it absolutely is based on someone would have to petition. That petitioner could be a family member. That petitioner could be law enforcement themselves. That petitioner could be someone in the mental health profession in the bill that I'm carrying.

But it has to go through a judge that has to weigh the information based on the evidence, based on testimony from folks to make the determination as to whether or not it actually meets the criteria and meets the threshold for the judge to say that weapon needs to be removed for what we would call a cooling off period so that individual doesn't commit harm to themselves or to anyone else.

CATHY WURZER: There are several gun control bills moving through the legislature, including yours. What's the evidence that states with tougher gun laws are safer?

CEDRICK FRAZIER: We look at the data. We look at the data. Specifically when we were talking about the red flag law bill that I'm carrying, we look at the data, and we can see the data clearly tells us that there are decreases in terms of-- and we focus a lot on the suicides by firearms in the particular bill I'm carrying because what we know in Minnesota is that over 60% of the deaths that are happening-- don't quote me on that number, but I think it's somewhere over north of 60%-- those deaths are being caused by suicide and by firearms.

And a large disproportionate number of those deaths are happening outside of the metro-- so in greater Minnesota area, like I mentioned before. And that's something we're really trying to focus on to bring those numbers down.

CATHY WURZER: Opponents say a bill like this would infringe on Second Amendment rights. What's your response to that?

CEDRICK FRAZIER: I would say these bills have passed constitutional muster around the country. That's why 19 states still have them in place. When you look at a place like Florida that put it in place after their mass shooting at the school, they've executed thousands of these protection orders, and they've saved lives.

They've either prevented individuals from harming themselves-- they've even prevented individuals that were planning to actually go out and execute mass shootings. And I think any time that we can save a life-- regardless of what the percentage is-- it is important that we do that.

And again, the way we should look at this as a cooling off period of taking that weapon away or weapons that can cause mass harm and mass death and ensuring that we can save lives and the individual that we take away from ensuring that they get the help that they need so that they don't want to cause harm and so that they can't cause harm.

CATHY WURZER: There are a number of bills that have already come through your committee, and they'll continue to probably come through your committee too when it comes to gun control and gun safety. And I asked Rob Doar this. Instead of implementing new laws, should pressure be placed on judges and prosecutors to charge gun crimes instead of swallowing the gun charges part of a plea bargain? What do you think?

CEDRICK FRAZIER: Well, I think part of what-- that has been the focus and the narrative that and the arguments that they have made. But these laws that we're talking about putting in place are specific tools to address issues that are currently-- right now, the tools are not there for prosecutors and for law enforcement to address these issues.

The issue with the red flag laws is the tools are not there to actually have the ability to have a judge provide an order to remove weapons in a situation like that. The storage laws-- the tools are not there to have folks to do that. The closing and loophole and the background checks-- the tools are just not there right now to do that.

We don't expect these laws to be a panacea, but we do expect them to be another part, another pieces of the puzzle to provide tools that can effectively help save lives when it comes to the gun violence that we have in our country, in our state.

CATHY WURZER: Are you pretty confident that there are the votes to pass some of these bills?

CEDRICK FRAZIER: I'm pretty confident that we have the votes to pass these bills. I think there is more conversation to be had, particularly from some of our newer members on the Senate side, but I'm absolutely confident that when those conversations are had. When they hear from people-- and we've heard this because we've had the hearings over here on the House side.

But when they hear from family members, when they hear from community members, when they hear from law enforcement of how these bills can provide effective tools to help save lives, I'm confident that will ensure them that they are doing the right thing to vote yes for these bills and get them into law.

CATHY WURZER: All right, Representative. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

CEDRICK FRAZIER: You're welcome. Bye.

CATHY WURZER: We've been talking to DFL state representative Cedrick Frazier. He's the Vice Chair of the House Public Safety Committee.