A closer look at the long struggle over the East Phillips Rooftop Depot site

MELISSA TOWNSEND: Let's head to Minneapolis now where an eight-year conflict over land in the East Phillips neighborhood is boiling over. Here's the backstory. In 2015, the East Phillips Neighborhood Institute lined up nearly $6 million to buy land called the Roof Depot Site. They had a plan for a community farm with housing and commercial space.

But in 2016, Minneapolis City officials decided they needed that site to expand the city's aging waterworks facility. Now, the site is in a historically low income BIPOC neighborhood with higher than average rates of childhood asthma. And developing the site, as the city wants to do, could potentially disturb arsenic in the soil. Experts say it won't hurt the community, but the community disagrees.

So for years, the two sides have negotiated, battled in court. And in February, community residents occupied the site. Many were arrested. Most recently, some community residents have gotten very upset and confronted city council members, yelling over others in city council meetings and issuing threats. Three city council members have filed police reports saying they were threatened and intimidated.

Recently, the council voted to ask state lawmakers to write clearer rules about public conduct. They also voted on a second measure to create stricter penalties for threatening public officials. We're going to hear from a member of the city council and someone from the East Phillips Neighborhood Institute. First up, Council Vice President Linea Palmisano introduced both motions to create a stricter code of conduct with greater consequences. She's here to talk about them. Councilmember Palmisano, thank you for being here.

LINEA PALMISANO: Thank you for having me, Melissa.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: I want to start by talking about the first motion I mentioned about conduct in meetings. If people don't feel like they're being heard through accepted channels, it can make sense to turn to more disruptive tactics. What do you say to people who feel like the council isn't listening?

LINEA PALMISANO: Melissa, I do feel like the council is listening. We've been working on being in East Phillips community and working with the community and coming up with memorandums of understanding to work with the community and do something that is both-- and both a public project for the city at large. And also giving space, specifically for the East Phillips Community in this area.

It did recently escalate to the point of protesting council chambers. But that was also paid protesters that were paid to show up with the purpose of shutting down the meeting. Not just protesters that were so mad they didn't feel that their voice was heard that they were going to voice that out of turn.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: Got it. I've got two questions there. One, how do you know they're paid?

LINEA PALMISANO: There is evidence of that, both on social media and otherwise.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: OK. And two, what are you seeing that is really raising red flags for you in terms of protesting or speaking up or threatening behavior?

LINEA PALMISANO: Yeah, thank you. In terms of speaking up at open meetings, our first position asked the state legislature to help us all across the state define boundaries so that both protest and meetings can coexist. I strongly believe in peaceful protests. But I don't believe that what happened in council chambers two weeks ago was peaceful.

A lot of the protests that has been in front of us, both in our work capacity and in our personal lives and home capacities has become increasingly violent and threats of violence. And that's not just specific to Minneapolis. So I truly believe that all of the public should have the benefit of being able to see what's going on. And we are elected to be that check.

And so when people interrupt our meetings, then they are preventing us from getting government business done and preventing other people, other than the 30 that are allowed to watch in council chambers, from being able to see it. So I do hope that better definition of open meeting laws can help us to have more tools in our toolbox than just to recess the meeting.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: And how do you want to see those rules enforced?

LINEA PALMISANO: I think it's about clarifying our ability to do our work. So things like guidance from the state such that we can decide what is a reasonable level of noise. Can we hear each other? How are people allowed to approach the dais? What happens when an official or a member of the public is blocked from entering or exiting or moving around the room where business is taking place?

Having these kinds of guidances are going to allow us the ability to conduct open meetings while also respecting an individual's rights to free speech. So I think clearer rules will help.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: And how do you want to see those enforced?

LINEA PALMISANO: I think if we have those rules, then if it is clear that it is just one or two people that cannot follow them, then they could be removed from the chambers. But if it is the kind of incident where you have many people in the room, then perhaps we could recess and clear that room and still, in a taped and publicly accessible way, continue to conduct that meeting. But not with the audience immediately in front of us. But rather, broadcast.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: OK.

LINEA PALMISANO: I think that helps meet the public test of transparency in government.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: OK. I have so many more questions, but I am out of time. Thank you, Councilmember. I appreciate it.

LINEA PALMISANO: Yeah.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: We've been talking with Minneapolis City Council Vice President Linea Palmisano. She represents Ward 13 in Southwest Minneapolis. We're going to turn now to Cassie Holmes. She's a resident in the area. She lives in a Little Earth of United Tribes housing complex. She's a citizen of the Lac Courte Oreilles Band of Ojibwe, and she sits on the board of the East Phillips Neighborhood Institute.

She's been a leader in the movement to build the community farm on the Roof Depot Site, instead of the city's plan to expand the public works on the site. She joins me now to talk about the movement and the recent city council action. Cassie, thank you for being here.

CASSIE HOLMES: Hi. Thank you for having me.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: Hi. So city council is taking action to change the way people are behaving in council chambers. What's your response to that?

CASSIE HOLMES: First, I feel like with the recent action on that, that they're trying to change the narrative of community who is the actual victims in their decision-making to them being the victim. I do know that in the past, that the people who are saying that they have been threatened and all that stuff has been going on for years with them and not just with recent things that have been happening with the Roof Depot site.

So I just feel like they're taking away from the real concern that we everyone should be talking about, and that's the safety of their constituents.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: OK. We've seen photos and video of people yelling in Mayor Frey's face or yelling in the face of city council members. What do you think of that?

CASSIE HOLMES: I don't condone that. I'm like, you know what? That was really hard to see. But at the same time, I had to ask myself a question. Because I haven't done that. And I've been angry and upset, too. But at the same time, we're burying our children. And these are parents who are really worried. I had someone say I don't want my kid or my grandchild to end up like Cassandra's child, who I buried because of environmental injustice and racism.

And so community members are terrified and they're scared. And we've been talking with the city councils for years with blatant disrespect and disregard to us. And they mockingly asked me, where's all the BIPOC people? Cassie, we see you and a bunch of white men here. Where's the BIPOC? Where's the Indigenous community?

And now they're showing up. And now they're still threatened by the presence of people who are finally saying, you know what? We're going to start showing up like you asked, because we're scared for our kids.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: And when you say scared for your kids and burying children, you mean because of the concerns about pollution on the site, the arsenic in the soil?

CASSIE HOLMES: The toxic pollution. That is not only the arsenic, but also the mobile pollution with all the cars and trucks coming in. So we're not only worried about the arsenic that we know is going to happen if they demolish, but also what happens after in their plant. With a magnitude of hundreds of car spaces, including diesel truck spaces that will be there.

And the green zones, they were put there to reduce pollution by the city council. And one of the major polluters are the cars and the trucks.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: There's been a process, as I said in the introduction, for years now where there have been city council actions and meetings and a public engagement process. You've been a part of that. I don't know if you personally, but certainly the organization you're a part of. At what point does it look like, OK, maybe we're out of options here?

CASSIE HOLMES: I feel like when it comes to our children's lives, we always have to stand up for what's right. And I feel like the city should really be asking themselves that question, because they put so many things into place that are supposed to be helping their constituents and communities like East Philips, like the green zone and racism being considered a health emergency.

So I really feel like the community should not be out of options. We should be heard. We should have the right to-- I had a councilmember Andrea Jenkins ask me to my face, do you want clean water, or do you want clean air? In the council member-- the chambers. And I don't think any constituent should ever have to answer a question like that.

And I think that we have the right to have both and to have a community vision that has to do with green jobs, green trade, and green education and green housing. It's not just an urban farm, but so much more.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: I also have many more questions for you, Cassie, and I'm out of time. I apologize. Thank you for being on the show.

CASSIE HOLMES: Thank you.

MELISSA TOWNSEND: That was Cassie Holmes. She's been working with members of the East Phillips neighborhood in Minneapolis to stop the demolition of the Rooftop Depot building and build a community farm.