Kosher pickle champion, playwright victorious at this year’s state fair

CATHY WURZER: We have a segment that for one of our next guests is more than 20 years in the making. Here's the deal. Back in the year 2000, Doris Rubenstein was disqualified from the Minnesota State fair's pickle competition for the second time. The liquid in her pickle jar was cloudy because she made them by a different process than the pickles the judges were used to.

They were traditional kosher pickles fermented in brine instead of preserved in vinegar. So she took the experience to local media, even turned it into a one woman play that was performed at the 2017 Minnesota Fringe Festival. More recently in Winnipeg, Canada. And this year, for the first time, fermented pickles had their own category at the Minnesota State Fair. Oh, My goodness. Doris Rubenstein is with us. Congratulations. How have you been?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Thank you. Cathy, I couldn't be happier.

CATHY WURZER: You and I did this story, that's the funny thing, all those many years ago. And, man, you were mad.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Oh, you betcha.

CATHY WURZER: Yes, it's true. What does it mean for you to have fermented pickles finally at the fair being judged?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: It means that people who want to have these kinds of pickles, who make these kinds of pickles, will have an opportunity to compete. I'm not doing it for myself. I'm doing it for people out in the audience who I see here today, who are also picklers and have never had the chance.

CATHY WURZER: I am so surprised that until now, just why wouldn't there have been fermented pickles? It makes sense. My grandma made them, for goodness sakes.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Well, believe it or not, there's a whole group of people, not just in Minnesota, but around the country, that don't realize there is another way of making pickles aside from curing them in vinegar. They are unaware that fermenting pickles is a way, a safe and healthy way, to make pickles. It's just a cultural thing in some ways.

CATHY WURZER: Now, I wonder how the State Fair saw the light after all this time. Did they finally look at you and say, Doris, OK, we see we've made a mistake. How did this happen?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: It happened about right after the fair last year that I read in the Star Tribune that there was new leadership at the State Fair. And I said, this is my opportunity. I waited until January to contact them, though, because I knew they'd be busy throughout the fall wrapping up the fair business.

So I did contact them in January and asked for a meeting with the new executive director. She was kind enough to give me a-- she had no idea about what this controversy was all about. She was kind enough to give me a meeting with her and other people involved in the creative activities building, and we had a very, very fruitful discussion. And they realized that, indeed, fermented foods are safe, and healthy, and tasty as all get out. And they deserve a place in State Fair competition.

CATHY WURZER: You waited, and you got what you needed. And congratulations. My goodness. Now, for folks not familiar with kosher pickles, how would you describe the flavor?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Well, there's two different kinds of doing it. Depending on where you come from in the country, you could have an old dill, or a full dill, or something like that. And those are really spicy. There's others who don't let the fermentation process complete itself and stop the fermentation after several days. And those are called new dills, or half sours, and they're a milder taste.

CATHY WURZER: OK. So you were kind enough to bring a couple of examples up here. By the way, the winner of this year's competition was Janice Schachtman. And Janice couldn't be here today, but she's going to she was kind enough to share some of her pickles with us. And some of Doris's pickles are here, too. Jacob Aloi come on over here.

JACOB ALOI: Hello.

CATHY WURZER: Yes, you're going to have to help me test these pickles, OK?

JACOB ALOI: Yes. This is a little maybe-- I wouldn't say traumatic, but last year, NPR sent me out to try out the new pickle flavored things last year.

CATHY WURZER: And you did fine.

JACOB ALOI: And so I went into a bit of a pickle fever. But I'm excited to taste these because I do actually enjoy pickles.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Well, these are Janice's half sour pickles, but they have been cured a little bit more. These came from her house, not from the jar that she submitted. So these are a little bit stronger than the ones we tasted at the fair. So these are Janice's little better than half sour pickles.

CATHY WURZER: Half sour pickles. OK. This ought to interesting. Thank you, Jacob, for doing this.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Or as we called them in Detroit, new dills. I'm originally from Detroit.

JACOB ALOI: That was really good. I mean, really flavorful. It's very complex. And, oh, I love the end note, kind of. Like, it's a little bit sweet at the end, too. I kind of enjoy that. You get the upfront kind of sourness, and then at the end you get a little bit kick of sweet at the end, too.

CATHY WURZER: Is there sugar in that?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: No.

CATHY WURZER: Oh, just thought I'd ask.

JACOB ALOI: But I think it just has that nice end to it. Right?

CATHY WURZER: Oh, wow.

JACOB ALOI: Yeah, you kind of have to go on a journey with it.

CATHY WURZER: Is that her grandmother's pickle recipe?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: I'm not sure where her recipe came from.

CATHY WURZER: Just curious. Now, your pickles. Go ahead. This is going to be big.

JACOB ALOI: It's sizably bigger. I love it. Oh, really juicy. Oh, my gosh. That brine comes through. I love that spice. It kind of lingers on your tongue a little bit. And I love that it-- yeah, no, that's really good.

I love a briny pickle. And so I'm a big fan of a kosher pickle. And this is that perfect amount of kick that you could keep eating it, but not too much that you can't eat it. But it has enough kick that you're like, I want to have another bite.

CATHY WURZER: So it's got a snap to it?

JACOB ALOI: Oh, yeah.

CATHY WURZER: See I've only pickled once with my grandma. And my pickles were squishy and icky. And I don't know what happened.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: I, frankly, don't care about the texture. I am not a texture expert on pickles. I'm a flavor person. So I don't care if it's smushy or if it's crisp. But a lot of people really want that crisp pickle. And you're rarely going to get that in the full or old dill pickle that I make.

CATHY WURZER: OK. By the way, is that your grandma's recipe?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: No, they're not, actually, It's another local woman, Aviva Breen, who I hope is listening today.

CATHY WURZER: Aviva Breen.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Yes, it's Aviva's recipe.

CATHY WURZER: Get out.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: But Aviva got it from her friend Shirley up in Duluth. And Shirley got it from her mother, who was Frieda. This recipe has a pedigree. But why I liked it, it was because it was closest that I'd ever tasted to the pickles made by my late, but very beloved, uncle Harvey Glassman.

CATHY WURZER: I love a pedigreed pickle. And we certainly have learned about this. Now, what were the three things that you really need to do? Are there three rules for good pickle making that if you screw them up, just you've messed it all up?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Number one, make sure that they are extremely clean. If they are not clean, because there is no vinegar in them, they are liable to get some fungus growing on them. So I put them in my washing machine, and so does Janet. To make sure they get good and clean, put in with some rags, a little bit of Woolite, and they come out really clean.

CATHY WURZER: I have never heard of this.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: It's real, folks. Number two, make sure that equally your jars are very clean.

CATHY WURZER: That makes sense.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Cleanliness is very, very important in the safety of fermented foods. And number three, make sure you've got a great recipe.

CATHY WURZER: I'm still at-- the mental picture of your pickles in the washing machine will stay with me the rest of the day. I love that. Now, before you go, you had the chance to judge this year. Is that right?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Yes, I was.

CATHY WURZER: And did you enjoy it?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: When I talked with the administrators at the fair, I volunteered to be a judge. I recused myself. Because I did not want someone who doesn't know what a pickle is supposed to taste like judging it. And indeed, really, that was a very important part of it.

I brought along with me to do the judging with me, because no one person should be the sole arbiter of what is a good kosher pickle--

CATHY WURZER: Absolutely.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: --but Aviva Breen.

CATHY WURZER: I'm so happy to hear that voice, by the way, and that name.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: It was wonderful to have that kind of experience with her.

CATHY WURZER: OK, because you are a force of nature, what food would you want to see added to future fair judging competitions?

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: We did have a couple-- what do you call that stuff? Kimchi entries. But we didn't have anybody-- There was Aviva and me, two Jewish senior citizens, judging kimchi. We're not the people to be judging kimchi just because it's fermented.

CATHY WURZER: Yeah.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: So it is my next crusade to go to various Korean restaurants and see if I can get some Korean people to judge the kimchi.

CATHY WURZER: Doris, my money is on you to get this done.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: It will happen.

CATHY WURZER: It will happen.

DORIS RUBENSTEIN: Ladies and gentlemen, the amazing Doris Rubenstein, one of this year's judges. Truly an amazing woman judging the fermented pickle category. And a champion for kosher pickles in the State Fairs' preserved food competitions.